Comments on: Geek Hierarchies, Boundary Policing, and the Good Fan/Bad Fan Dichotomy http://blog.commarts.wisc.edu/2010/08/13/geek-hierarchies-boundary-policing-and-the-good-fanbad-fan-dichotomy/ Responses to Media and Culture Fri, 12 Feb 2016 19:35:04 +0000 hourly 1 https://wordpress.org/?v=4.7.5 By: Mikhail Koulikov http://blog.commarts.wisc.edu/2010/08/13/geek-hierarchies-boundary-policing-and-the-good-fanbad-fan-dichotomy/comment-page-1/#comment-24991 Sat, 21 Aug 2010 00:45:44 +0000 http://blog.commarts.wisc.edu/?p=5598#comment-24991 In a way, I think, the problem is that I find policing (as opposed to critiquing!)counterproductive. I want social justice issues to be discussed but mandating taste tends to bring defensiveness and circling the wagons

And this (in particular the use of the term ‘policing’) makes me think first of all of how anime conventions very explicitly set up permitted and prohibited conducts. A costume is (generally) OK; a ‘hug me’ sign or a vuvuzela is decidedly not.

As far as circling the wagons, etc., goes, though, why shouldn’t that exist. There is being a fan, but then there is being a member of a very specific group that defines itself by what it is, but also, by what it does not do. Like that old saying goes, “It’s not about what you’re like, it’s about what you like”, and being a member of a specific fan group allows you to buy into an identity, a group, and a social organization that is not built around your physical qualities or your place and role in the world outside the fan group.

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By: Kristina Busse http://blog.commarts.wisc.edu/2010/08/13/geek-hierarchies-boundary-policing-and-the-good-fanbad-fan-dichotomy/comment-page-1/#comment-24806 Tue, 17 Aug 2010 21:18:22 +0000 http://blog.commarts.wisc.edu/?p=5598#comment-24806 Yes, I think you’ve put your finger on the problem at the center of the hierarchy: there is no way you can ever make yourself acceptable enough, even if you disavow anything beneath you on the hierarchy. Moreover, by accepting this model, you’re perpetuating it.

Internalized indeed!

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By: Kristina Busse http://blog.commarts.wisc.edu/2010/08/13/geek-hierarchies-boundary-policing-and-the-good-fanbad-fan-dichotomy/comment-page-1/#comment-24664 Sun, 15 Aug 2010 17:19:17 +0000 http://blog.commarts.wisc.edu/?p=5598#comment-24664 Yes, which is why it was wrong of me to even bring them up in the response to Rebecca. my post really was meant to address the fannish hierarchies and internal and external dismissals of fannish engagements.

The social justice conversations are certainly both a different issue and follow different dynamics, you’re right!

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By: Kristina Busse http://blog.commarts.wisc.edu/2010/08/13/geek-hierarchies-boundary-policing-and-the-good-fanbad-fan-dichotomy/comment-page-1/#comment-24663 Sun, 15 Aug 2010 17:16:01 +0000 http://blog.commarts.wisc.edu/?p=5598#comment-24663 I think you are. I do think there’s a lot of people who enjoy things that are not considered OK by others, so that affect and intellect go different ways. It’s then that we get the two guilty pleasure responses, I think: some just repudiate the intellectual aesthetics while others push themselves into the acceptable and dismiss the rest. (A little bit like the two responses to the canon debates now that I think of it : )

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By: allison morris http://blog.commarts.wisc.edu/2010/08/13/geek-hierarchies-boundary-policing-and-the-good-fanbad-fan-dichotomy/comment-page-1/#comment-24660 Sun, 15 Aug 2010 15:12:40 +0000 http://blog.commarts.wisc.edu/?p=5598#comment-24660 the way fans replicate negative outsider notions of what constitutes fannishness, often using similar feminizing and infantilizing concepts.

This is something that interests (and frustrates) me as well — my working theory is that fans are often involved in an ongoing fight, both within their own minds and with the world, to prove that fannishness and fanworks are legitimate (adult) identities and activities. And also that legitimacy is, by necessity, employing the definitions that are reflected back to us most often in the workplace, the media, and in social settings outside of fannish enclaves — legitimacy as enacted within an adult professional-class white male cisgendered able-bodied heterosexual paradigm. As that definition relentlessly rejects the other as illegitimate (and regularly targets teenage girls and their interests in particular as frivolous, transitory, and in need of paternalistic guidance), we borrow that behavior in order to set ourselves on the side of the ‘legitimate’ — attempting validation of our own legitimacy via borrowed behaviors.

There’s also interplay with the rejection of stereotypes, certainly — but I think we tend to throw out the baby with the bathwater in many cases, there. The stereotypes of the basement-dwelling socially inept male fan, the cat-owning lonely spinster shut-in female fan, and the giddily screaming teen girl fan are all, in pieces, there in real life. But the stereotypes foreground the negative and mockable, and also, in my opinion, reductively propose that the root of all of those negatives is taking illegitimate subjects (unserious, ‘low’ culture, not artistically valued, and unsanctioned by the ‘legitimate’ definition I pose above) too seriously — being too earnest, failing to hold an ironic pose. A ‘cool’ affect is the ‘adult’ approach, and shoves away association with those stereotypes, but the rejection of those 2-dimensional stereotypes wholesale demands constant defense and disclaiming: “I’m a fan, and i own a cat, but I’m not one of those fans“; “I am in popslash fandom, but I’m not one of those annoying teen girls”; “I play D&D, but I go on dates”. This behavior is inherently a losing game, as we validate the stereotypes rather than transcending and redefining; we blame fans who we see as embodying the stereotypes for undercutting our legitimacy as a group, rather than accepting that we are all more than that. A real person who embodies a stereotype is not therefore reduced to two dimensions — they are more, and they are valuable and, I believe, still legitimate. We’re trapped in our defensive poses forever, and that defensiveness divides us, creates a perception of hierarchy within fandom communities that is ageist, misogynist, and ableist. It does us very little good, and a great deal of harm.

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By: Laura Shapiro http://blog.commarts.wisc.edu/2010/08/13/geek-hierarchies-boundary-policing-and-the-good-fanbad-fan-dichotomy/comment-page-1/#comment-24631 Sun, 15 Aug 2010 04:06:32 +0000 http://blog.commarts.wisc.edu/?p=5598#comment-24631 I can’t speak to that — I’ve never had that uncertainty/discomfort around what I like or don’t like. The idea of a “guilty pleasure” makes sense to me intellectually but it’s not something I feel about the shows or fanworks I enjoy or create. Just lucky, I guess?

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By: Laura Shapiro http://blog.commarts.wisc.edu/2010/08/13/geek-hierarchies-boundary-policing-and-the-good-fanbad-fan-dichotomy/comment-page-1/#comment-24630 Sun, 15 Aug 2010 04:04:51 +0000 http://blog.commarts.wisc.edu/?p=5598#comment-24630 Well, I used “policing” because you used it in your title, but truthfully? I mostly see critique in fandom, not policing. I do see a lot of critique in fandom that gets called policing, and that bothers me.

I do see the good fan/bad fan stuff being brought up in both arenas mentioned, but most of the social justice conversations I’ve seen veer quickly away from fandom and fannishness. In contrast, the conversations about furries being weird or fans being “OTT” or whatever stay centered in fannishness.

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By: Kristina Busse http://blog.commarts.wisc.edu/2010/08/13/geek-hierarchies-boundary-policing-and-the-good-fanbad-fan-dichotomy/comment-page-1/#comment-24591 Sat, 14 Aug 2010 15:59:53 +0000 http://blog.commarts.wisc.edu/?p=5598#comment-24591 Yes, you are certainly correct that the two differ. I do nevertheless find that in both cases we shouldn’t use a good fan/bad fan dichotomy. In a way, I think, the problem is that I find policing (as opposed to critiquing!)counterproductive. I want social justice issues to be discussed but mandating taste tends to bring defensiveness and circling the wagons so to speak rather than opening up dialog-especially when it’s linked with something as complicated and emotionally invested as fan identities.

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By: Kristina Busse http://blog.commarts.wisc.edu/2010/08/13/geek-hierarchies-boundary-policing-and-the-good-fanbad-fan-dichotomy/comment-page-1/#comment-24590 Sat, 14 Aug 2010 15:51:46 +0000 http://blog.commarts.wisc.edu/?p=5598#comment-24590 That. I think the two connect, however. We often follow external principles and ideas even though they may not follow our own desires/tastes (i.e., the way we evaluate stories through lit class lenses). I think a lot of fannish uncertainty and discomfort comes from the gap between what we like (genre, affect, …) and what we’re supposed to like (often quite modernist aesthetic principles)…

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By: Laura Shapiro http://blog.commarts.wisc.edu/2010/08/13/geek-hierarchies-boundary-policing-and-the-good-fanbad-fan-dichotomy/comment-page-1/#comment-24519 Fri, 13 Aug 2010 19:00:08 +0000 http://blog.commarts.wisc.edu/?p=5598#comment-24519 I would argue that policing of degrees/types of geekiness is not the same as policing political or social justice implications of certain geeky choices.

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